Summer Games/Engage question for Steve Schmidt
Charlie Barrett posed the following questions, and it prompted some discussion on an email list for the Summer Games. So it has been moved over here for an official response from you.
GITM Rule 8.8. Units may also be ordered to engage the nearest enemy combat unit. Units may be ordered to engage in specified starting and ending phases. If a unit has two or more enemy units that are equally near, it will attack the one requiring the fewest diagonal moves. If a unit has both an engage order and a destination or waypoint order, it will move to the waypoint and destination, and begin to engage the nearest enemy unit in the tactical phase after the one in which it reaches its destination. Units will not engage an enemy headquarters unit unless there is no enemy combat unit available to engage. If a unit fails a morale check, it will cease attempting to engage enemy units.
What happens if the two enemy units are equally near, and have the equal number of diagonal moves ?
If three 3 units start from same location, will they all attack the same enemy unit ??
Or does each unit attack of an enemy unit become random ??? Based on what ????
Charlie
Here is a condensed version of the turn report:
This is tactical phase 2:
Strategic square G4-U4
GS20MC moves from 9-3 to 9-1
Adjusting movement of GS20MC to 7-3 due to hostile unit blocking movement.
GS20MC starts a combat in G4-U4, 7-3
GS17LI is engaged in it.
GS20MC moves from 9-1 to 7-3
GS10MA moves to engage enemy unit at 6-4
GS10MA starts a combat in G4-U4, 6-4
GS82IN is engaged in it.
GS12LA is engaged in it.
GS10MA moves from 9-6 to 6-4
GS77IN joins the combat in G4-U4, 7-3
GS77IN moves from 6-3 to 7-3
GS71IN moves to engage enemy unit at 7-3
GS71IN joins the combat in G4-U4, 7-3
GS71IN moves from 9-6 to 7-3
GS69IN moves to engage enemy unit at 7-3
GS69IN joins the combat in G4-U4, 7-3
GS69IN moves from 9-6 to 7-3
Combat Support Moves
Combat Resolution
Battle at G4-U4, 7-3
Yellow Regiment forces:
Front line: GS71IN (Yellow Regiment: 4000-1 X), GS69IN (Yellow Regiment: 4000-1 X)
Second line: GS20MC (Yellow Regiment: 1500-0 X)
Green Guards forces:
Front line: GS17LI (Green Guards: 3000-0 S), GS77IN (Green Guards: 4000-1 S)
Battle front is 2 miles long
Firing Segment
Firing strengths: 10032 Yellow Regiment and 3320 Green Guards
Melee Segment
Green Guards troops have one flank turned!
Melee strengths: 14074 Yellow Regiment and 2166 Green Guards
Total Combat Losses:
Yellow Regiment: 620
Green Guards: 1438
Battle at G4-U4, 6-4
Yellow Regiment forces:
Front line: GS10MA (Yellow Regiment: 300-3 X)
Green Guards forces:
Front line: GS82IN (Green Guards: 4000-1 S)
Second line: GS12LA (Green Guards: 400-4 S)
Battle front is 1 mile long
Firing Segment
Firing strengths: 1866 Yellow Regiment and 3834 Green Guards
Total Combat Losses:
Yellow Regiment: 278
Green Guards: 104
Suggestions (in previous emails) about fatigue are not applicable, all three units had same fatigue as this is tacphase 2.
Rule 8.10 is the rule on support moves. This is not a support move but an engage move. As can be seen in the turn report - Combat Support Moves - blank.
GS20MC had a destination order and started first combat at 7-3.
GS10MA. GS71IN and GS69IN are all at 6-9 and all have engage order. Squares 6-4 and 7-3 are equally distant and equally diagonal:
GS10MA moves to 6-4, an starts a second combat.
GS71IN mooves to 7-3, and joins first combat.
GS69IN moves to 7-3, and joins first combat.
It maybe that the combat support algorithim is used in engage orders also and the rules just do not state it. But, at the point that GS69IN moved, "the odds against its side are the worst" at 6-4, not 7-3.
The joy of dissecting turn results )
Charlie
Who's new
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I'm back
RL has let me go for a little while, so I plan on catching up to all pending NWOL/ROTD business in the next few days.
Before I deal with the substance of Charlie's question, let me issue the general reminder that in GITM, players have the role of division and corps commanders. They do not have the role of brigade and battalion commanders, thus they do not directly control the movements of those smaller units. As is the case for real-life division commanders, you send an order to the brigade, and the brigade does something in response to that order but it may not be what you expected. If you give a specific order (move to 9-6 by way of 8-8) the brigadier will normally do it, or something pretty close to it; if you give an order which gives the brigadier some discretion (engage or intercept orders) then it is less predictable exactly what will happen. This is a desired effect of the game design; there isn't any randomness involved, but the exact tactical situation is unpredictable and so the response is to some extent unpredictable as well. Real battles are like that too.
Working through Charlie's questions:
1) Equally near and equal number of diagonal moves - the choice is based on the order of the units in the search algorithm and hence is unpredictable to the players.
2) Will all 3 engage the same enemy unit - sometimes but not always, because other units will move in the interim and that can change the battlefield situation in ways that affect the choice of unit engaged. Even if all three move consecutively, then it's more likely that they all go to the same place but still not guaranteed because the move of the first one can change the situation in ways that causes the second to go to a different place.
3) There is no specific random factor, it's based on the locations of all units in the strat square and, where there are ties, it's broken by the order of the enemy units in the search algorithm, which is not random but from the player's perspective is essentially unpredictable.
On the specific tac phase:
Charlie is correct that neither fatigue nor existing battle odds are relevant. The reason that this happened is that the two squares are equally distant and equally diagonal, thus the tiebreaker for order of units in the game data kicked in. The movement of GS77IN to 7-3 added one more unit to the list of hostile units at range 3 with 2 diagonal moves, and must have caused the tiebreaker to go to 7-3 rather than 6-4. (Without having the game data from this turn at hand I can't be 100% sure, but that is a logical explanation consistent with the results and there is no other explanation at hand, so it must be what happened.)
So in short, this worked correctly, and it is the consequence of the tiebreaker method being essentially unpredictable. In reality, it would be hard for a division or corps commander to control which battle the units went to, or to keep them together, so this is IMHO a realistic outcome. When there is a large battle, things get out of control of the higher officers and what happens is not always what would have been optimal had closer tactical control been possible.
Steve
I am a wizard. I make things using magic. SJS
So the moral of the story is ...
...don't let your artillery commanders made any decisions on where to go. They may or may not stay with infantry brigades so it is safer to have them move with a specific unit to a specifc location and not give them engage or support orders because they might go somewhere else.
Does the above statement sum up the situation correctly?
Von Gottes Gnaden König von Preußen
Artillery and infantry
There are many reasons to attach batteries directly to the infantry; this is one. There are also many reasons to keep them separate (ease of concentration being the biggest). Some balance of the two is probably ideal; every player has his/her own idea about where that balance is.
But yeah, batteries attached directly to infantry units will not separate from them.
Steve
I am a wizard. I make things using magic. SJS
Artillery and Infantry
I am just guessing here, but rank in battle, i.e. First or Second, has nothing to do with order of processing orders. This is where I'm confused, because if a unit is assigned to the 2nd rank it seems to me that that unit would move second or third in the situation we are describing. How would a 2nd rank move into position before a 1st rank unit? I can understand that you want some level of unpredictablity, but I can't see how a unit ordered to move into the 2nd row of combat could end up in the front row of combat. That was diffently NOT my intention. I could understand if the infantry units would move prior and choose different locations to head to, but I can't deduce how a 2nd rank unit would move first and end up without any unit moving to support him.
It may be as simple as putting the order of movement the same as the rank of file, i.e., 1st, 2nd, and then 3rd.
I know that this is something that would require an overhaul of the system, and it could not possibily be rectified now, but I do think this is an area worth looking into.
Art Ingram
PS-That little mistake-cost me 4 units of my command!
"In war men are nothing, a man is everything."-Napoleon Bonaparte
rank and movement
Remember that each of these tac squares is a mile on a side. The units do not
make tactical movement in battle formation; they do it in column, road column
where possible. They only deploy for battle when they reach the battle square.
What rank they deploy in depends on who else is there. So if an infantry unit
has orders to deploy in rank 1 and the artillery in rank 2, then if both get to
the same square they will deploy that way. But if the infantry doesn't make it
to the destination and the artillery fights alone, it gets forced up to the front
rank. Since the fighting rank is determined after movement, it can't be used to
determine the order of movement. (The desired rank could be, but since the
desired rank and actual rank may not match, probably shouldn't be.)
Steve
I am a wizard. I make things using magic. SJS
Rank in combat has nothing to
Rank in combat has nothing to do with movement mate and is dependent on the amount of fighters.
I.e. each single tac square offers a 1 mile front which holds 3000IN in the 1st and 2nd ranks (unlimited in the 3rd). Cav I think count for 2 places in a rank and arty depends on size and ranges from (I think) 6 or 8 for LA to 12 for HA. Each rank must be filled ( I believe) before a unit can go in the rank behind, or just the 1st always needs to be filled.
If attacking from 1 hex and 1 adjacent hex (i.e. North and North-east, the front will be 1.5 miles. if attacking from 2 different hexes (i.e. North and East) the front will be 2 miles.
so units move in a random formation based on fast units 1st then regular units. Once all units have moved it looks at the combat where your units are put into ranks based on amount of units in the fight and where you ordered them.
I.e. 2x3000IN and you have ordered 1 to 1st and 1 ordered 2nd will go in that order. If you made both 2nd then parts of both will be put in the front rank (no idea if it would be all of 1 or 50/50 or 70/30 splits etc.)
there are various penalties to being in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd ranks. As can be found on the best webpage ever created by Mr.Schmidt - http://holf.org/NWOL/gitm/strmods.html
Never post drunk...unless that is your norm.
This seems to be a completely unexpected result
GS10MA. GS71IN and GS69IN are all at 6-9 and all have engage order. Squares 6-4 and 7-3 are equally distant and equally diagonal:
GS10MA moves to 6-4, an starts a second combat.
GS71IN mooves to 7-3, and joins first combat.
GS69IN moves to 7-3, and joins first combat.
This is a very interesting development. When one spends the time to create a force composition that is reasonable and balanced as this one is with 2 IN brigades and an artillery brigade together in one square, one does not expect the artillery brigade to go off and attack one square, with the 2 IN brigades attacking a completely different square given that all units had the same order.
Artillery units are best served as support units to IN brigades. They offer tremendous firepower per man but are very fragile. Artillery batteries are best served fighting in rank 2. Leaving their primary duty of supporting IN brigades to attack an enemy by itself forces the artillery out of rank 2, into rank 1. It also will be exposed to horrific losses.
Firing Segment
Firing strengths: 1866 Yellow Regiment and 3834 Green Guards
Total Combat Losses:
Yellow Regiment: 278
Green Guards: 104
278 men lost out of 300. The brigade is essentially destroyed.
If some computer logic necessitates that a unit attack another square, then it would have been more reasonable to have expected an IN brigade to attack 6-4, or that the two brigades would have attacked 6-4 and a lone IN brigade would have attacked 7-3.
Robert