Captain's Corner
March 6, 2009 - 11:13am — admin
This forum topic is introduced to post the latest discoveries that are being introduced into the mechanics of playing Scenario C. As you all know, Scenario C is an attempt to "stretch" the PATE & SOW code beyond its original vision. Some modifications are proving to be successful and others need clarification. This forum topic is opened to document these "lessons learned" as we proceed with the new approach to playing PATE and allow you, the players, to not lose time & energy on game mechanics that require GA-intervention or assistance.
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PATE Scuttle Ship order violates PATE rule #4.10
Due to an error in the PATE code, the Danish squadron scuttled at Aarhuus will be restored and transferred to control of the Swedish Navy.
See notes from the investigation below.
--------------------------- Extract--------------------------------------------
The code is not enforcing rule 4.10, and that's definitely a bug.
The ships scuttled should be restored and transferred.
Steve Schmidt
From the PATE rulebook
4.10. Ships and TRs may be removed from the game when not in the same
tactical location as enemy ships. Ships may not be removed if they are in a
sea area unless at least one friendly ship (not being removed) is present,
but TRs may be. In either case, the crew go back into the manpower pool at
the end of the season following the season of the removal. Any units or
supplies aboard TRs that are removed are lost.
Steve, Would it not be
Steve,
Would it not be easier, and make more sense, if instead of distinguishing between sea area moves and port moves, each ship just had three moves per turn, including moves into port.
Then, in order to ensure that ships couldn't move an unrealistically vast distance in a single turn, tighten up the wind restrictions (differentially betwenn ships and frigates of course) so that a PATE unit's ability to move at distance from A to B is essentially the same as it is now but with much more flexibility.
For example, if I'm off a port and wish to move to the associated sea area, and then to the harbour of that or another port and then back to the sea area, in the time span of a strategic turn why shouldn't I be able to cover that relatively short distance, winds of course permitting?
Jim
Jim Voege
Naval orders form change in the works
For several games in a row, I have gotten comments from players about
ships moving into ports and back out unexpectedly. The reason is often
that players do not realize that ships always make a port move as soon
as they can. So if you're in (say) the North Sea, and you order a move
to the English Channel, then a move back to the North Sea, and then
a move to London, the program will move you to London port first.
From there you can't get to the English Channel, and so you won't
move the rest of the turn. You'll be OK because you'll end up where
you wanted to, but you'll have been in port the whole time and didn't
do whatever it was you wanted to do at sea.
There are other versions of this where you (incorrectly!) order just the
North Sea move and the London moving, intending to move around
the North Sea all turn, then move into London at the end. That too
moves you into London at the start of the turn, then back out to the
North Sea. This particular version (in different ports) is the one that
comes up once or twice a campaign.
To fix this, I am going to add an option to the naval orders form that
allows you to delay a port move until the middle or end of naval
movement. The default will be to go immediately, but you can change
it. If your move is not possible at the time you ordered it, you will do
it later if it becomes possible (ie, if winds change).
I am talking with John Sanders about the best time to put the new
version of the order form online. More news as it develops.
I am a wizard. I make things using magic. SJS
The new order form is there
You can now submit orders to control the timing of port moves. The order acknowledgement will not yet, however, tell you what you did. You have to remember that yourself this turn. I will extend the acknowledgement form for next turn.
It probably would work to do what Jim suggests but the time required to make the code changes is better used for other things.
Steve
I am a wizard. I make things using magic. SJS
Ships of the Line & Frigates
Currently in PATE, SLs & FRs do not fight at sea.
However, SLs can pin a Frigate in a harbor if it is in coastal waters. A SL will fight a FR if both are in harbor waters.
Out on "blue water" the faster FRs will elue the heavier Ships of the Line.
Movement to harbors
Several new PATE players are having trouble getting or keeping their boats in Port.
Here is the explanation from Stephen Schmidt:
It's caused by players not realizing that they will move to harbor at their first opportunity. So in this case, since he ordered the move to NOC twice, my guess is that he moved from wherever he started, to NOC, to Santo Domingo, then back to NOC.
Caribbean shipyards
There have been several questions about Caribbean shipyards and their capability.
Scenario C is using the embedded PATE shipyard capabilities. There is roughly one shipyard for each Colonial Governor and one that was in control of the pirates (independent contractor). There will be no expansion of these yards or additions made.
To see the list, go to: http://www.distance-simulations.com/NWOL/maps/ports.html
These shipyards are for repairs only. No ship construction is allowed to include TRs.
Players having Ports with TR capacity need to contact the GA if they want to raise any TRs. This was an experiment to broaden the capability inside PATE & it failed. Any Caribbean TR building has to be done by the GA.
European Waters are off-limits for raids or pickets
There was an oversight in the Scenario C Player Instructions.
European waters are off-limits for deliberate combat operations. Accidental combat by ships in transit can not be avoided but attempts to blockade ports is outside the design of the scenario.
During the period of Scenario C, the War of Spanish Succession was underway in Europe. This had the double impact of pulling combat vessels out of the trade routes as well as forming large home squadrons for the major combatants. These home squadrons would rapidly, and with dramatic effect, prevent the establishment of the "mini-blockades" that are being attempted.
These actions in European waters were independent of the situation in the New World where the Colonial Governors were left to fend for themselves. Thus the chaos that was the Spanish Main.
To reflect these events, the Colonial Governors operate independent of the European political heads in Scenario C. Order would be restored later ( in about 10-15 years) but for now its every man for himself and God save them all.
Raid executed on T3
The Anarquía pirates have successfully raided Port au Prince looting the Port warehouse and the Governor's mansion.
Scenario C is introducing another enhancement to NWOL?
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/jd/92068.htm
Perhaps Pirates in the Mediterranean?
John Vanvark
No enhancement has been discussed
No enhancement has been discussed as of yet. Will have to see how Scenario C is ultimately received by the members of the Guild.
Raids executed on T1/Spring 1700 (Scenario C)
The remaining Pirates fled to their ship, the Waydah.
Raids executed on T1/Spring 1700 (Scenario C)
Would the action of item 3 diminish the strenght of the Waydah (lost manpower etc.) or is there no penalty?
John Vanvark
Those are actual losses
The numbers given in the vignette are the same the good ship Waydah suffered from the foiled Raid attempt.
Transporting Treasure, Pirates, & Reinforcements in PATE
Question:
How long does it take to load Treasure? We have presume loading treasure is task oriented as in loading troops and not stores. Thus it takes one turn to load. Yet if this is true it means the Treasure ships at sea started loaded.
Answer:
Treasure is loaded via request to the GA; Loading occurs immediately. TRs can issue movement orders for the same turn. Yes, several Treasure ships were pre-loaded at scenario start.
Question:
If pirates do not enter port to exchange treasure, for coin credits... is this a GA action?
Answer:
There are options known only to the Pirate captains. They do have to be in the proximity of the Port.
Question:
Raids: how is treasure loaded? How is stores loaded if one prefers stores to treasure?
Answer:
This is a GA manual action. Raiding player has to state his preferences when he announces his Raid to the GA.
Question:
Frigates, SOL's: They can load treasure. How do they do this?
Answer:
Yes they can. It is a request for GA manual action. The limits for capacity are referenced in the Captain's Corner on the Scenario C Forum on
the Guild web site. < http://www.distance-simulations.com/drupal/node/98/334#comment-334 >
Question:
The special scenario rules stated no reinforcements. IS this for GITM units only? Can PATE units get reinforcements? We already have 1 ship with only 25 crew, so are we forced to disband this ship once it reaches port? Or, can we requisition crew from other ships?
Answer:
The "replacement/reinforcement" ban was for T1/Spring 1700 only. It was intended to make players adhere to the force mix design primarily for Scenario B. You can requisition reinforcements for your prize crew. However, SOW does not work well in the Caribbean (meaning I am not sure reinforcement orders will work in the Carib). I would suggest a transfer of crew between vessels via a request for GA manual adjustment and a reinforcement order for the losing vessel just to be on the safe side.
Transfer of Ship's Crew
John,
PATE is supposed to allow crew transfers between ship as per PATE Rule 2.7. Are you saying that this doesn't work in the Caribbean and that a manual GA action is necessary? Also, perhaps with Steve's help could we get a clarification of this rule? It says that crew *cannot* be transferred from either FRs or TRs but then suggests it can be by talking about the minimum number of men a frigate can be left with and the capacity useage of extra crew for TRs.
Jim
Jim Voege
I will ask for a clarification
Jim,
I will ask for a clarification of PATE Rule 2.7.
JJS
No Blockades in Scenario C
This note is in response to an inquiry from one of your peers.
In Scenario C, there are no Blockades allowed. The vessel density for a Blockade is not high enough in Scenario C to make one effective. It would be a misallocation of resources to attempt it.
Guidelines for requests for GA assistance (Scenario C)
I will offer to all Scenario C players (not the A or B guys) that given a reasonable request to allow loading of Stores or Treasure, ensuring that 5 boats get worked on in a 5-pier harbor, etc -- I will be glad to execute a manual action.
I would just require an email to games2009@holf.org -- with "GA HELP:" as a prefix in the subject line, explanation of the problem, details ("Dick, Jane, & Spot" level of granularity, please) of the requested GA-action, and any fiscal exchange/action if applicable. I would require these requests be delivered ahead of the turn suspense date/time group. No retroactive requests.
PATE BUILD orders in Scenario C
Question:
Can I BUILD ships in the Caribbean?
Answer:
In the Home country Ports only. Any new FL, SL, FR would then have to be sailed from Europe to the Caribbean.
Clarification:
Some of you were asked to attempt to BUILD TRs in the Caribbean on T1. Stephen Schmidt had thought the code would allow it. It did not. (PATE recognizes the off-map Ports. SOW does not) All player-initiated TR BUILDs will now have to be done in Europe.
Scenario C (only) Transport limits
The following capacities are in effect for Scenario C naval vessels only (these DO NOT apply to other Spring Games scenarios nor NWOL):
Supply (land logistics unit) = Treasure (don't need land Supply in a naval-based scenario)
Stores, Treasure/Supply are transportable. You have an limit of 500 count (of anything) for transport on a Frigate. (FYI other limits are - SL=750 /FL=800 / TR=1000)
Clarifications on Treasure, TRs, Assaults, types of Ports, etc
Question:
We have one treasure fleet that will make a one-time run to Europe, and then what happens to that TR? Does it become a normal transport group or remain a treasure fleet? Can we choose to keep sending this fleet back and forth and get the 500% VP bonus each time (or is that a one-time deal). Can any TR carry stores or only those "labelled" Treasure Fleets?
Answer:
#### - I will have to publish an addendum to this special rule. I missed it on the player info. Treasure TRs - make the run to Europe; deliver the Treasure that gets converted into cash at 5x; then the TR disappears (goes back into the merchant fleet); simultaneously, a new TR appears in the Caribbean at the old TR's port of origin (did this to avoid the 3-4 "deadhead" transit from Europe to Caribbean); TR is now ready for duty.
#### - a TR can act as a troop transport or a Treasure transport. The "treasure" label is a sublimal hint
#### - you always buy another TR
Question:
Do the unit modifiers for combat (Assaults in Player Information) in off-map ports still apply? (I think HC is worth 200% of its combat strength in an off-map port, for example)
Answer:
#### - as far as I know - yes.
Question:
Are VPs taken away from a country if they are in the red financially at the end of season (or do they just get 0)?
Answer:
#### - yes, the penalty includes loss of VPs to make up the deficit
Question:
The special rules speak of treasure arriving in Europe being converted into 5X cash for later conversion into VPs but can this treasure cash be used for purchases and other operating purposes?
Answer:
#### - yes. Cash is cash.
Question:
What is the significance of the designation of an island as a Treasure Port, a Fortress Port or a Port of Call? Do the names actually have implications?
Answer:
#### - Treasure Ports are ports that get a load of "Treasure" at the start of each campaign season for transport to Europe (the pack trains arrive from elsewhere). Not all Scenario C factions have Treasure Ports (see pre-game map). But Treasure Ports may be ASSAULTed and taken by an opposing faction. The Port will still get its Treasure allotment
#### - Fortress Ports have shore guns. They are the only ones that do. All other ports, to include some Treasure Ports (look at the annotated map I sent out & placed on the web site), don't have any guns. The only protection they could have against Raids would be a Garrison
#### - Ports of Call means the island/area has a PATE off-map port. That means it could have a garrison, some Stores, or some Treasure. Ports of Call can have Treasure; by not being a Treasure Port means that the Treasure there is a one time load by the game setup
#### - you will not know about Garrisons, Stores, or Treasure unless you scout out the Port or pay someone else to do it for you.
Question:
In the NM's report there are "supplies" reported in each of our ports. Is this actually "treasure"?
Answer:
#### - I will have to post a clarification about this. Long story short -- Supply = Treasure; the Nav Minister reports did not get the fix in the
code patch that affects the ship stats on the navreports
Question:
I'm having trouble seeing how raids can be converted into VPs. Can you explain how a successful raid can help win the game?
Answer:
#### - a faction makes a Raid. If successful the raiding faction can take or destroy all commodities at that Port - Treasure or Stores. The Treasure at various Ports of Call can be in the 100s. This "booty" can then be sold in Europe or on the black market (Pirates or another Colonial) for cash or bartered for another vessel if one is in the mix. Cash will then subsequently converted into VPs
Recap of Questions about handling of Treasure and Treasure Fleet
Question:
Supply is being used as treasury. States can have this supply/treasury in various Carib. ports at game start. When do they count as being able to cash out as VP's. Only after they get to the home country? If in a port of the Caribbean or on board a ship that is too bad?
Answer:
#### - Treasure (Supply) has to be transported to the mother country to count for the VP cash out. If we have a situation where Treasure is on a ship & it is becalmed in the English Channel on T10, Summer 1700 & can not deliver its cargo -- we can negotiate. If the Treasure is sitting in the Caribbean because you did not want to make the Atlantic passage -- then it will not count.
Question:
When do treasure ships drop off the map? When they leave the harbor going to Europe? Is there a time delay to for the transit?
Answer:
#### - Treasure ships do not "drop off the map" -- they have to sail back to the home country. Takes 3-4 turns going west to east. There is always a possibility of weather floundering a ship on the passage so the transit occurs.
#### - I did not mention in the Player Information but once a TR hits home waters (sea area next to Europe) then a new Treasure fleet can be requested & raised at the Treasure Port. This is to cut the management hassle of running empty TRs back to the Carribean. (off-map ports are not allowed to raise TRs in SOW/NWOL).
Stores & Treasure
Here is the single subject that I have received the most inqueries about:
come from elsewhere. That is a hassle for this scenario. That is why
Stores are placed in each port at start (so play can start w/o waiting on
logistics).
as outlined in the Player Information. (see extract below)
of moving these Stores to the Caribbean, players will be allowed to ask
the GA to teleport new Stores from European ports to specified colonial
ports (once delivered, the only way Stores can be moved inside the
Caribbean is via the standard PATE transport system)."
In the Carribbean, because land units stay Inactive the entire time
(either as Garrisons or on-board ship) -- Supply is not needed. Therefore,
Stephen & I recognized that we could use Supply in the database to
represent "Treasure" as the driving commodity for the scenario. It was to
be re-labelled as such (I believe it is on the Position Reports) but it
seems we missed the labelling on the NW & WM Reports. Please note the
amounts are accurate but that Supply = Treasure for Scenario C.